F*ck, Are Screens Making Us Stupid? With Dr Mark Williams

SEASON 2 > EPISODE 3

Dr Mark Williams

In this episode of F*ck, I’m Nearly 50!, I’m joined by neuroscientist, author and speaker Dr Mark Williams, one of Australia’s leading voices on the impact of screens, devices and technology on the brain.

And honestly… this conversation scared me a little.

Because I went into it asking a question I think a lot of us are quietly wondering:

• 👉 Is my screen time making me less sharp?
• 👉 Is it making my kids less focused?
• 👉 Are we losing our ability to think deeply, remember things, be bored, connect properly and just… be?

And what Mark makes really clear is this:

It’s not just about screens.

It’s about what screens are replacing.

Stillness.
Boredom.
Face-to-face connection.
Movement.
Sleep.
Nature.
Real conversations.
Real life.

✨ If you’ve ever thought:

• “Why can’t I focus anymore?”
• “Why am I always reaching for my phone?”
• “Is this affecting my kids more than I realise?”
• “Am I modelling the behaviour I’m trying to stop?”

This episode is for you.

THIS EPISODE GETS INTO:

• 🧠 What screens are actually doing to our brains
• 📱 Why phones, notifications and constant switching are making us more distracted
• 👧 Why children’s developing brains are especially vulnerable
• 🚨 Mark’s view that this generation may be the first to be “dumber” than their parents
• 🏫 Why screens in schools and edutech may not be helping kids learn
• 😬 The link between screens, stress, cortisol, behaviour and attention
• 💬 Why real-life social connection is one of the best things we can do for brain health
• 🌿 Why nature, boredom and unstructured time are essential, not optional
• 🔕 Why turning off notifications is one of the simplest ways to improve focus
• 🍽 Why phones don’t belong at the dinner table, in bedrooms or in bathrooms
• 💡 Why social media isn’t actually social
• 🤖 What Mark really thinks about AI, smart glasses and the next wave of tech
• 💪 Why creatine may help with memory, attention and brain energy for some people
• ❤️ Why volunteering, community and “gas bagging” might actually help us live longer

WHAT I LOVED ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION

Mark doesn’t make this feel like a guilt trip.

He makes it feel like a wake-up call.

Because this isn’t about being anti-technology.

It’s about using technology well.

It’s about remembering that our phones are supposed to work for us, not the other way around.

And the bit that really stayed with me was this:

When we choose presence over distraction…

Connection over convenience…

Real life over constant scrolling…

We’re not just managing screen time.

We’re shaping how our kids think, feel, connect and experience the world.

And maybe we’re also giving ourselves back something we didn’t realise we’d lost.

Our attention.
Our memory.
Our creativity.
Our calm.
Our ability to just be.

ABOUT DR MARK WILLIAMS

Dr Mark Williams is a neuroscientist, author and speaker who helps people understand how the brain works and how modern technology is changing the way we think, learn, focus and connect.

His book Screen Smart Children is a practical guide for parents who want to help their kids thrive in a world that never switches off.

🌐 Learn more: https://www.drmarkwilliams.com/

📘 Read Mark’s book: Screen Smart Children

🔥 Let’s keep the conversation going! 🔥

📺 Watch the episodes on YouTube – Subscribe here! 

💬 Join the community – Follow me on Instagram @fckimnearlyfifty and share your thoughts on this episode. Or connect with me on LinkedIn.

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📢 Spread the word – If you loved this episode, share it with a friend (or 10). Because midlife is better when we figure it out together.

Because f*ck, we’re nearly 50, and isn’t that amazing? 🚀

Transcript

Brain Fog, Ageing, And Screen Doubts

Dom Hind 0:00

Hi, I'm Dom Hind, and fuck, I'm nearly 50. Actually, I'm 48 now, and lately I've been thinking a lot about my brain. Not in a dramatic way, just in that quiet, creeping way where you start to question things. Like, why can't I remember simple things sometimes? Why do I walk into a room and forget why I'm actually there? Why does it feel harder to focus than it used to? And then I start wondering, is it just age, hormones, life, or is it something else? Because if I'm honest, I spend a lot of time on screens. My laptop, my desktop, my phone, scrolling, working, switching between things constantly. And I've started to genuinely question is my screen time making me a bit stupid? Or at least a little less sharp, more distracted, and more forgetful. And then I look at my kids and I think, what is this doing to them? Their attention, their memory, their ability to sit with boredom, to think deeply, to just be. Because this isn't something we grew up with. This is new, and we're all just kind of figuring it out as we go, trying to set the rules, trying to find the balance, trying to not feel like we're getting it completely wrong. And then on the flip side, I've been experimenting with things like creatine, and I actually feel like it's helping with my brain fog and with giving me some clarity, which makes me think even more curiously about what's really going on with our brains, what's helping, what's hurting, and what actually matters. And one of the things that really hit me reading Mark's book was the idea that it's not just about screens, it's about what screens are replacing that space, that stillness, the boredom, the real connection. Because when you actually step back, you realize how little space we give ourselves or our kids to just be, to sit, to think, to feel something fully. We fill every gap with noise, scrolling, stimulation, and maybe that's part of the problem. Because I don't want to overreact, but I also don't want to ignore something that could have a real impact on us, which is why today's conversation feels so important. So let's get into it.

Dr Mark Williams 2:29

Yay!

Dom Hind 2:40

Dr. Mark Williams is a neuroscientist, author, and one of Australia's leading voices on the impact of technology and screens on the brain. His research focuses on how digital devices affect attention, memory, learning, and behavior, particularly in children and adolescents. He spent years studying how constant screen exposure is changing the way our brains function and what that means for how we think, focus, and connect. His book explores this in a way that both is confronting and incredibly practical. And I can say it's incredibly practical because I've just finished reading it. And it helped helps parents and individuals understand what's actually happening beneath the surface and what we can do about it. Because this isn't just about kids, it's about all of us, our focus, our memory, our relationships, our ability to be present. And the reality is most of us know something feels off. We just don't fully understand why or what to do about it. Dr. Mark Williams, welcome to Fuck I'm Nearly 50. To start, if someone was to if you were to introduce yourself at a dinner party, how would you introduce yourself?

Dr Mark Williams 4:05

That's an interesting question because my job now has changed a lot over the last 10 years or so. So I was a professor of cognitive neuroscience. I still am a professor officially. Um, but during COVID, I actually took voluntary redundancy to start working more in the public because I wanted to spend more time getting out the message about our brains and how our brains actually work. So now I'm an author. Um I'm still an honorary professor of cognitive neuroscience, which means I studied the brain, yeah. Neuroimaging techniques. And I'm a speaker, so I go to a lot of schools and organizations talking about the brain and how we use it or how we're not using it in a good way. Yes. Um so yeah, it's sort of complicated. But that happens when you get older, right? It keeps evolving. Yeah, which where do I actually want to know that?

What Screens Do To Brains

Dom Hind 4:54

Um when you talk about screens, because I was just thinking about this. What is a screen? Is it just phone or is it TV, iPad? Like what is the extent of a screen?

Dr Mark Williams 5:03

Yeah, it depends on what you're talking about. So a screen really can be anything from a TV all the way through to just the phone, or even the smartwatches, which I don't wear. Yeah. Or a smartwatch. So it can be anything from those extremes, or even the glasses, of course. Now we've got the smart glasses now. So it constantly evolves. So it's really difficult to say which is which, which but but they all impact, but they impact in different ways. Yes. So that's what we've got to be careful of. And it's a lot more nuanced than just screens.

Dom Hind 5:32

Yeah, okay, right. Yeah, and everyone, every screen has its own uh positives and negatives. Yeah. I'm glad that you said that. Um, let's start broad. What are screens actually doing to our brains?

Dr Mark Williams 5:48

So again, it depends on the screen, but if you're talking the mobile phones, which is what most people are really concerned about, um they're making us dumber, really, let's be honest. Yeah. We we know so there's been what we call the Flynn effect where our intelligence has been getting greater and greater with every generation. Uh and IQ tests have had to be tricked altered slightly to make them a little harder, because you need an average of 100. In the last 15 years, it's actually gone the opposite way. So we're actually getting dumber. And so it's a this is the first generation that will actually be dumber than their parents were, which is really, really scary. It's so scary. Really scary. And then we have you know attentional problems, we've got this huge increase in attentional problems, we've got a huge increase in uh our body mass, right? We we've got obesity is going through the roof, and we know also uh bone density is decreasing the next generation quite considerably, which is also really concerning. And then we've got a huge increase in Alzheimer's disease and these things, which can also be linked, especially in uh early onset Alzheimer's, which were uh what dementia, early onset dementia, which is affecting 35 to 45 year olds, which is really scary. And in two years we saw a 400% increase in those individuals, and and it's specific to those individuals who are the first group of people who have had devices for basically most of their lives, not all of their lives, but most of their lives, um, which is really scary. And you know, you can go on there's there's attentional problems, there's mental health issues.

Dom Hind 7:20

Oh, yeah. There there's so many issues, aren't there? There are, there are, and we keep just turning back to it.

Dr Mark Williams 7:27

Yeah, and I can it's so ubiquitous now in society, right? Everyone has one that I think it's become just part of life. Uh but I get really frustrated by people saying that's the way it is now. Yeah. And so let's just leave it. We when I was a kid, smoking was huge. I started smoking when I was 12. And uh in my high school they had a smoking room for the year 12 students. What? Which you wouldn't you wouldn't even imagine these days. Um and then the government realized this was a big problem, and several comp or several there were several lawsuits and so on. And so things changed. And and we banned, or we didn't ban the smokes, but those smokes were already banned, but they actually started doing something about it. Yeah. And I never gave up smoking until I was about 30, right? Right. But that was the next generation that never actually took up smoking. Um, and so I see it like that. We've got to this point where it is damaging, we know it's that significantly damaging. Um, and so we need to put in some sort of control so that the next generation won't be affected by it.

Dom Hind 8:32

Yeah. I th I think the because that that was one of the things in your book that when I read that the next generation are actually going to be dumber than us, it's actually really concerning because all we want is for our kids to be smarter, better, yes, and uh change the world or do something that we haven't been able to do.

Dr Mark Williams 8:50

Yeah, and it's not just the smartphones, right? That's also the edutech, right? We've got all this educational technology in schools. We've got BYD, which is the craziest thing. Because I I've yet to find a an educational app which is actually resulting better education of the students than actually having a teacher in front of them. And yeah, we have these, and and we have more devices in schools than any other country in the world, yeah, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, and we have some we have the worst behavioural issues of any other country in the world. Um, and it's a result of the fact that we've got these devices in front of the kids, which increases cortisol, makes them more stressed, um, and they're not connecting with the teacher because they've got a screen between them, and so therefore they don't have a relationship, the same relationship with the teacher, and so therefore we have these behavioral issues, and we wonder why. And we have our students now when they leave school at the end of year 12 are equivalent to they're halfway through year uh year 11 from you know 10 years ago. They're a year and a half behind where they were 10-15 years ago, and all the data is showing that. So we have a big problem we've got to deal with.

Dom Hind 9:56

It's a massive problem. Um, which and you you were just talking about it before, you were involved in getting the you know, the age of social media lifted. Yes. And also now uh helping over in the UK as well.

Dr Mark Williams 10:11

Yes.

Dom Hind 10:12

What for you, what is the driver for you wanting to be involved with that?

Screens In Schools And Policy Battles

Dr Mark Williams 10:18

I I've seen the damage. When I was at Macquarie University full-time, I actually volunteered to go out to low SES schools. We uh got funding to do that, and I spent a lot of time, that was quite a few years ago, going to low SES schools. Uh and I saw the damage that was being caused in these areas, these were all in remote, remote areas and communities and so on. And and that really concerned me. And that's when I sort of started doing research. And also, my I had children who were in primary school, and their principal came to me and said, I'm thinking of uh doing BYRD, introducing BYD into primary school. BYD bring your own devices, bring your own devices into the primary school. And he'd seen me on um Catalyst, yes, um, and he in relation to something completely different, but in relation to the brain. So he wanted to chat to me. So we chatted, and I convinced him this wasn't a good idea, yeah, which meant he then went to his director, and the director was like, Well, what's going on here? This is what the department wants. Um, and then his director then chatted to me and was like, Can you talk to all my principals? Yeah, and so it sort of exploded from there. Yeah. Um, and it was like, maybe I can make a difference here. Yeah. And I realized that there's a lot of nonsense out there in relation to the brain as well, right? There's a lot of, yeah, really silly ideas that just aren't true. Okay. Um like watch one. Um the funniest one I've ever heard um is this idea that if you're I forget which eye it is, but if you look into one eye, someone will trust you more because of the way the babies which, if you had any knowledge of how the visual system actually works, which is it goes through the LGN and then it splits up. That just doesn't work out the way. There's no which is the funniest one I've heard, but there's a lot of other ones.

Dom Hind 12:01

Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. So it was that you knew that you could actually make a difference, which is that's pretty amazing to get involved because you knew that even one voice can make a difference.

Dr Mark Williams 12:12

Yeah, and that's what's been amazing. I when I was working in Macquarie and I was going out to schools, I would get uh after I've been doing it for a few years, I would actually get students arrive at Macquarie University and come to me and say, Hey, I saw you at this event, and I'd never thought of going to university before, and here I am. Oh, that's amazing. My you know, my siblings are also thinking now of going to university, even though we never have it.

Dom Hind 12:35

And that that to me was like that's yeah, that is yeah, that makes you feel good. Yeah, it does.

Dr Mark Williams 12:42

And and yes, and from there on it was like, well, hang on, there is and it's there is hope. Yeah, there is hope. And I I do things and get lots of emails from people, and I'm just like, wow, that's which I love. And if I haven't replied to an email that you've sent me, I'm sorry. I do try to get to them all, but occasionally I get a little overwhelmed.

Dom Hind 12:58

Okay, yeah, that you need to stay away from screens. Um what struck me about reading your book is that it's not just about what screens are doing to us, it's about what we're losing in the process. The connection, the living, just being the interpretation. What like is that what you have if you buil boil it down to is that what you think is being is happening?

Dr Mark Williams 13:24

Yeah, we we're missing missing out. Our bra our brains are use it or lose it paradigm, right? We've known that for a long time. Well, not that long, but a fairly long time now. And so the more you do, the better your brains become. Yeah. And and the less you do, the the worse your brains become, basically, which is why, you know, one of the great examples of that is nursing homes. You know, we used to put people in nursing homes and we put them in front of the TV and we'd feed them and we'd put them to bed and then we'd put them in front of the TV. And they would die much more quickly. And then we realized that wasn't great, and so we started organizing things for them to do and gave them choices over what they could eat and got people in to play musical, and we found that they'd live 10-15 years longer and they wouldn't get Alzheimer's disease and do neurodegenerative diseases so quickly and so on, right? Because they were using their brains, and so therefore it survived longer. And it's no different for any of us, really. And when you're on a device, you're not using your brain, you're defaulting to what's on the device. And so you're not exercising the things you need to be exercising, and you're missing out on a huge amount of time. And it's really sad. Like, I I did volunteer for a sh period of time um in my earlier years, uh, at a hospice, end-of-life hospice, and this was for people who were in the last two weeks before they passed away. And I volunteered there and worked with the family members and so on, and also with the people who are actually dying. And I don't think I ever heard somebody who was dying ever mention that they were upset that they hadn't spent enough time watching cat videos. Or right? It's not what they miss is their family, yeah, yeah, and the connection and the connection. Yeah, I wish I had spent more time with my family, I wish I had spent more time with this person, I wish I had got in touch with that person who I lost contact with. I wish I had spent more time with people.

Dom Hind 15:15

It's really interesting, and it I I'm observing it a lot more where if I'm even before we came here, I had a cup of tea, I didn't look at my phone because I'm like, I just refuse to look at my phone when I've got a moment to myself. And I love observing and watching, but everyone else is on their phones, and I think you know, to try and have a connection even with a stranger, if they're on their phone, it's so hard, so hard to do.

Dr Mark Williams 15:42

It is, and and it it it impacts so many parts of our lives because we don't get to meet people. That's it, you know, and we don't get to talk to people, yeah, whether it's at work. I mean, work that we we have this huge problem now with people only staying within their employer with an employer for three or four years, right?

Dom Hind 15:59

And then less in some industries.

Dr Mark Williams 16:01

Yeah, much, much less.

Dom Hind 16:02

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 16:02

And and a lot of those because they have no connection to the workplace because they don't know who they work with because they're on their phones all the time.

Dom Hind 16:09

Or remote or remote or yes.

Dr Mark Williams 16:12

Yeah, so they don't have those relationships that we actually need. And then productivity's gone down. We know productivity is much worse now than it was 15, 20 years ago, which is because of the distractions and all those things. But it's also because we're not talking to each other about what we're doing, so we don't know who to go to or what's actually you know already been solved and trying to solve things ourselves rather than having people that we can actually talk to and so on. And that's both personal lives and at work.

Dom Hind 16:35

Yeah, yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 16:36

Everywhere in personal life, you need people to support you. And loneliness, we know, is now huge rates of loneliness, both in younger kids but also in adults, which is sad. And then the older we get, the more lonely.

What We Lose Without Stillness

Dom Hind 16:49

Yeah, and I think in that middle age group as well is where you know kids have l leaving home, you've lost the connection with their schools. And it is, you do get quite lonely in that age group if you don't have those connections that are there.

Dr Mark Williams 17:02

That are already there. Yeah, and we need to have those connections before because it's gonna go bad, right? We're always gonna have hiccups. There's also always shits that's gonna happen. Sorry, I'm all at a second. No, yeah, you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dom Hind 17:13

There is fuck in the title.

Dr Mark Williams 17:16

Um, yeah, it's gonna happen, right? We're gonna have bad periods. Yeah, and unless you've got it set up before that, yeah, then it's gonna be really hard. And if you have to have it set up before that, yeah, then it's not gonna be as hard because you're gonna have people who just support you. Yeah.

Dom Hind 17:30

And also I was talking to someone yesterday about expanders. So, you know, the the expanders are the people that do actually lift you up, and you know, you have a five-minute conversation with them and you feel good, great again. And, you know, making sure that you do have those expanders in your life, because you're right, the shit gets real, and you do need someone who can actually lift you up as well.

Dr Mark Williams 17:49

Yeah. And as long as you are as well, right? Absolutely. It's about giving back too.

Dom Hind 17:53

Absolutely. It can't just be one way.

Dr Mark Williams 17:55

Yeah. Yeah. You take it from someone else and then you give it to someone else. Very much. Let's get communities going again where everyone supports each other.

Dom Hind 18:02

Yeah. You talk a lot in the book about creating the right conditions for brain health, not just removing the screens. Can you explain what the conditions actually are?

Dr Mark Williams 18:15

So, yeah, that's a great question. It's about boundaries, right? We've got to set boundaries for ourselves and we've got to set boundaries for our kids. And we've got to be demonstrating to them what we expect of them. Because kids, especially teenagers, I have two teenagers. Teenagers will uh listen to will do about 10% of you what you say, and they'll do about 90% of what you do, right? And they do copy us constantly. Yes. And it's through the mirror neuron system, but yeah. It is a a thing that happens, and so we need to be demonstrating that this is not a good thing. And so you can't be sitting there on your phone and telling your teenager to get off their phone. That's just and so you need to be demonstrating what you want from them. So setting up your house in a way that is best for you and for them to be doing things that are important for us, which is actually interacting with each other. Because we've got to remember that we our brains haven't changed in the last 35,000 years, right? It's not evol evolution doesn't happen in one or two generations. So our brains are the same as they were when we were hunter-gatherers, and that meant we were spending a lot of time with each other, supporting each other and communicating with each other, and we would work for four or five hours, and then the rest of the time we'd socialise. And that's what's really important for us. And if you look at the blue zones, right? The blue zones, the one thing consistent across all of those is the socialise. They spend time talking to each other, they spend time making dinner together, they spend time talking over dinner and spend a long time eating their food, right? Because they're talking to each other and they're interacting with each other.

Dom Hind 19:50

Yeah, it's not like a 15-minute dinner and then you're out, like it is.

Dr Mark Williams 19:53

It's especially not a 15-minute dinner while everyone's looking at their phones and then out or while the TV's on and then out, right? It's actual the conversation, real conversations. Nothing upsets me more than going to a cafe and seeing a couple there with their kids and kids are on the middle.

Dom Hind 20:08

It's it's terrible.

Dr Mark Williams 20:10

Very sad. Or a kid in a pram and the phone's in the phone. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's really, really sad.

Dom Hind 20:14

Do you know after reading the books? I've only just finished it. So this Friday night we're actually having friends, fam, uh family friends, so the kids can actually bring one of their friends to dinner. Oh, nice. So every Friday night now is gonna be kids bring one of the dinner, they get the bus home, and then we all sit down and have dinner, and then they may actually make which is I'm gonna absolutely regret doing it, but letting them make the dessert. Nice. So, you know, like it because at least it's no screens, but it also made me realise that no phones at the table ever, like we're just not doing that. But as soon as the kids get home, so that there is, I mean, the behaviour, that was something that really did hit me as well, is your behaviour they mirror rather than what you tell them.

Dr Mark Williams 21:02

Oh yes.

Dom Hind 21:03

And I think if we are on our phones all the time, they're gonna think it's okay to do the same and do it. So it is as soon as they're home, no phones. Yeah, phones go away.

Dr Mark Williams 21:15

And it I know some people say, but hang on, I've got to be on my phone for work or whatever. And that's fine as long as you're honest with whoever it is you're with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I've got to just check this email for work, da da da. It's not and then you expect that of them. Yes. And so if they pick up their phone, my son has a phone, 14, and he'll always say, Oh, sorry, dad, I've just got to check because so and so is gonna text me because we were gonna get it in the courts for think, right? Yeah, yeah. And I know what he's actually doing on his phone. Rather than just the default of I'm just gonna scroll scrolling away, whatever it happens to be. And yes, you may be working, which is fine, but make sure you everyone around you knows that.

Dom Hind 21:49

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that is a big thing because it then it shows that you've got respect about boundaries, this is what I'm doing, but I will be off soon.

Dr Mark Williams 21:58

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Dom Hind 21:59

What are some The other things like um the daily movement and this unstructured time. I think unstructured time is a big one because we absolutely just load our kids up and also us up with so much stuff. What's that doing to us?

Dr Mark Williams 22:18

It's putting us on high stress constantly, right? We've got this high stress level which is releasing cortisol because cortisol is released when we're in stress, and stress and cortisol is actually really bad for our system for a long period of time. And so we we're in this constant state of stress because we're constantly, what's next? What's next?

Dom Hind 22:33

Yeah, let's go, let's go, let's go. Let's go. What are we missing out on?

Dr Mark Williams 22:36

Yeah. Plus, you've got to be bored to be innovative and creative, right? You've got to actually allow yourself to sit in the moment, which is really, really important. And also kids don't, I know I think kids these days have a lot of trouble working out what they want to be, right? Because they never actually get a chance to think about what they want to be. They're forced into all these different whatevers. And and then that's what they think is them, and that's what they should be. Whereas giving kids time to just be in themselves and play and do things like that, they'll work work out what they actually want to be and what they want to do rather than what you think they should be doing.

Dom Hind 23:16

Yeah, uh, it's one of the things that I constantly get told is I'm bored. And I'm like, there's no it's you can't be bored if you if you're not boring. So go and find something to do.

Dr Mark Williams 23:27

Yeah, I love that son. And and that's when the good stuff happens.

Dom Hind 23:32

Well, absolutely.

Dr Mark Williams 23:33

I remember as a teenager we used to yeah, pull our bikes apart and rebuild them to strange things and all those sorts of things. Because you were bored, which is great. Yeah, and you find stuff to do. Yeah, and sometimes it was silly, and sometimes you do something you probably shouldn't have done, but you were learning during that process. Absolutely.

Boundaries, Boredom, And Better Brain Conditions

Dom Hind 23:51

Um, after reading your book, I've actually this term and I've got the tubwork and like the coloured tubs. It's called the boredom box. So I've actually filled it with like coupons, like you know, go for a walk or do whatever, as well as like a puzzle book and some colouring and pen, like just you know, the uh other stuff that they have to actually go through, look at it and go, okay, I don't I'm not gonna be bored, I'm actually gonna be doing something. So rather than being watching a TV show or being on a screen, they can go to their boredom box and actually use their brain in that way, or give it some space anyway.

Dr Mark Williams 24:29

Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, and they're the best, right? You need a space where you've got all that stuff and board games and oh board games, absolutely, card games. I mean and there's some great board games and card games out there now. Oh, yeah, some really cool new ones, yeah.

Dom Hind 24:42

Uh the card games are interesting. My son will not go out to dinner without a pack of cards. Awesome, yeah, which is great until he wants to play blackjack at the dinner table. And I'm like, okay. Oh um, why is having that unstructured time so critical for our development?

Dr Mark Williams 25:03

Yeah, so uh there's what we've got um in our brains is basically we've got uh what we call a working memory, yes, yeah, which is sort of like your consciousness, what you're aware of at any one moment in time. And that's really limited. And people I don't think people realise how limited that is. And that's limited to what we call seven slots, plus or minus two, or used to be when we originally studied it. So phone numbers, for example, used to be limited to six numbers because you needed to use the six slots to remember the six numbers, and then you needed another slot to dial the phone. Whereas now they're not because we've got much one. We think that working memory has actually dropped down to about four slots now because we don't use it in the same room. But your attention determines what goes into that working memory, and your information in that working memory can either come from your long-term memory, which we know is completely unlimited, right? It's never actually no one's filled up their long-term memory. So that's amazing, much bigger than any computer we've got. And that holds all the stuff that we've ever done in our lives. If we've held it for long enough in our working memory to get transferred to a transfer store, so it can get transferred to that long-term memory when we're sleeping. Yeah. And you in your working memory, you can either pull stuff out of your long-term memory and use it and then stick it back in, or you can get information from the world. So we're talking to each other, so we're listening to each other and interpreting that information with our working memory.

Dom Hind 26:24

Right.

Dr Mark Williams 26:25

And that's why we're not noticing other things around us, yeah, because we're focusing on that. Um, but we need to be pulling it out of our long-term memory because that reinforces what's in our long-term memory as well. And that only happens when you're bored, right? Or when you're thinking about something, when you're sitting by yourself and you're thinking about something, or you're trying to come up with new ideas or whatever. That happens when you're, yeah, when you're doing that. Or if you're having right, we'd never have discussions with anybody anymore. Yeah. Because we look it up. Whereas what we need to do is just be going, you know, so and so won the I don't know, 100 meters Olympics in running, whatever, and you're like, no, they didn't, it was so-and-so. No, no, it wasn't, it was they were the year before.

Dom Hind 27:04

And this this is the logic, this is the reason for it.

Dr Mark Williams 27:06

Yeah, so this is the reasoning for it, this is right, and that's all bringing it out of your long-term memory. Whereas today, if someone says, Oh, so-and-so, and then you look it up and go, No, they didn't.

Dom Hind 27:15

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Dr Mark Williams 27:15

And there's none of that. There's no yeah, so there's no reason for working out long-term memory, yeah, which needs to be done regularly. So we have a strong long-term memory. Because that's where innovation and creativity happens. Okay. Right? You can't be innovative and creative unless you've got lots of information in your long-term memory to connect different ideas and concepts together with.

Dom Hind 27:34

So, and because we're always on, we're not getting that space.

Dr Mark Williams 27:37

We never get that space. We never get that space to exercise our long-term memory. So we need to we need to do that much, much more slow, slow down.

Dom Hind 27:46

Permission to pause, that's my favorite thing at the moment. Permission to pause.

Dr Mark Williams 27:50

Yeah, because we're really good at at innovation creativity, right? Computers don't do that. No, AI doesn't do that. AI is just regurgitating what's already out there, which is pretty dumb. Whereas we're really good at being innovative and creating, but we're slower at it. Yeah. And so we've got to slow down and allow ourselves to do that and then allow the computers to do the fast stuff away from us.

Dom Hind 28:12

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 28:12

Yeah. Rather than being on and trying to do the fast stuff all the time.

Dom Hind 28:16

Yeah. Um, I've honestly like I've genuinely started to wonder if I my own screen use is making me slower or have the my own brain fork. Do you uh and I know that I'm getting older, but do you think it is like it it obviously is affecting adults just as much as it is affecting kids too?

Dr Mark Williams 28:40

Yes. And and I hear I hear a lot of people say that, right? Oh but I'm getting older. Yeah. But getting older doesn't make your brain slow down. Getting older doesn't impact your brain negatively unless you've got a neurodegenerative disease, in which case you've got to go and see someone and get drugs for it. Um, and that's not most of us. Yeah. And so if you are do feel as though your brain's slowing down, then there's something you're not doing, which is causing that. Yeah. And what it probably is is not spending enough time in the real world. Because when you're on a device, you're not exercising your brain. Yeah. And you've got to exercise your brain to keep it healthy so that you don't get those neurodegenerative degenerative diseases later on. It's a mouthful. Um, and so yeah, if you feel like you're not concentrating as well and all those sorts of things, then it could be that. It also could be hormonal, right? Yeah, yeah. You do go through parametopause, um, and that can cause, but that's temporary, it's a short period of time, and then it should go away. Yeah, great. So it shouldn't be a long-term thing. So if it's been for a while, then it's probably due to the devices. Yeah. And also, even if it is due to the parameters, you want to be really careful that it you don't have it also impacted by the devices because that's going to cause an even bigger damage, right? You've got to do axes causing a much bigger issue for you. And so you need to consider that as well.

Dom Hind 29:56

Okay, good. Yeah, all right. So I think the message out of that is pause.

Dr Mark Williams 30:00

Pause. Yeah, everything.

Dom Hind 30:02

Put the phone down, pause, put the phone down.

Dr Mark Williams 30:05

It's actually really wonderful.

Dom Hind 30:06

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 30:07

There's some amazing stuff out there. Yeah. And it's really, it's much more relaxing. And it's really important for us. And let's put, I mean, there's very much very little on the devices, which is interesting. Yeah. Most of it's nonsense. Let's be honest. Sorry, I know you put this online and I don't.

Dom Hind 30:26

I agree with you.

Dr Mark Williams 30:27

There is some good stuff.

Dom Hind 30:28

No, no, there is some good stuff.

Dr Mark Williams 30:29

Most of it's AI.

Dom Hind 30:30

It's it's interesting, even as you were saying that, like, just being in nature, being surrounded by amazing trees, like that it grounds me. And I think that we have lost that ability to find something in the real world that does actually ground people because we think that we've got to be on the device for the 7,000 WhatsApp messages that really uh just Harry's lost his tie or Susan's lost something. And you know, they take up that time, but it's really not important.

Dr Mark Williams 31:00

No, and we do know that being in nature actually is is really good for our brains, right? We've there's lots of research now showing that it it increases your cognitive capacity, increases your attentional capacity, it uh increases your memory capacity, your ability to retain information, it improves your innovation creativity. And that's only like half an hour. After half an hour, they've shown that innovation creativity goes through the root, as long as you don't have a device on you. So they've actually shown what even in your pocket?

Dom Hind 31:28

Yeah, even in your pocket.

Dr Mark Williams 31:29

Really? Yeah, so they've shown that if you go for a walk in, you know, uh bushwalk, uh uh just for half an hour, it'll improve all those things that quickly, which is quite amazing. But if you've got a phone in your pocket cock pocket, it doesn't happen. Wow. Yeah. So we've got to leave the phones behind.

Dom Hind 31:44

And what about if you've got your watch going, okay, how far? It just is bad.

Dr Mark Williams 31:48

So you've just got to turn it off and put it in your backpack, and that seems to get rid of the effects.

Dom Hind 31:53

Yeah, wow.

Dr Mark Williams 31:54

Yeah.

Dom Hind 31:54

Okay, all right. That's interesting to know.

Dr Mark Williams 31:56

Yeah.

Dom Hind 31:57

Okay, good. That's something I need to do. Um, what age, just going back to the kids, what age does this or do the screens have an impact, or is it just on use as soon as they start using them?

Dr Mark Williams 32:09

Yeah, so it it is just use. There's horrendous data now showing that it um young children who uh are on a device or on a screen, they have abnormal development of their white matter tracts and frontal regions of their brain. So they're actual brain changes occurring, which is really scary because their brain's developing at that early age, and so they need to be off the devices and in the real world. Um, and then the more you're on a device, the more likely you are to have those brain changes as well as you get older. Because your brain, as I said, you use it or lose it throughout your whole life. And so there's those really important years from zero to twenty-five. Yeah. Because the brain doesn't stop changing until you're 25, where you're not going to develop these abilities because you're not using them. Um, but then after that, you can lose them because you're not constantly exercising them, right? It's no different to fitness.

Dom Hind 33:04

No, no, no, exactly.

Dr Mark Williams 33:05

So therefore, yeah, yeah, you've got to keep fit and you've got to eat well, and you've got to drink water and you've got to so share.

Kids, Dopamine, And The Cost Of Easy

Dom Hind 33:10

Just another another thing on the long list. On the long list, yeah. With the um and it I don't know, we we chatted before about, you know, seeing the kids in the prams with a screen, so many people will say, yeah, but it's just easy. Like, is that what do you think when someone says it's just easy?

Dr Mark Williams 33:29

Is that i i it is easy, but the problem is easy when they're young causes huge problems when they're old. I I work for the I do um volunteer work with Kakoda Foundation, they do a detailed detox program with teenagers, which is uh and I work with the parents when they do that, or do a session with the parents. And you know, seeing those teenagers, if if they had done it the hard stuff early, yeah, they wouldn't have that really, really hard stuff later on. And you know, there's downorexia in a basement, believing me in the SRI did a lot of research in that area, and that that was where I first got involved in the social media ban because of what was going on there. Um, you know, there's so many aspects to it that are causing problems. Um, and so yes, it's easy, but it's gonna cause much more problems and it's gonna be much harder later on. Whereas if you do what's slightly harder when they're young, and they're not young for long, I mean, I miss my kids being young. I mean, I love them as teenagers as well, but it was so quick, right? Yeah, it's so good. And so spending that time with them when they're young is gonna make it so much easier when they're older.

Dom Hind 34:36

I think something you say in the book is the investment that you make, and and it you need to consider it to be an investment that you make in them early means that it pays off massively later in life.

Dr Mark Williams 34:49

Yeah, yeah.

Dom Hind 34:50

And it is it is it is it is hard at that and that early stage, but maybe yeah, the the investment needs to be there.

Dr Mark Williams 34:58

Yes, and and even uh the investment there means that you know, you've I mean you've all probably seen it, right? Taking an iPad or off a young kid is really, really hard, right? Yeah. But if they never get there, you never have to take it. So don't give it to them, and then you won't have that struggle later on. And we also there's lots of evidence now that that devices are causing all um ADHD in a lot of kids, right? There is there's there's genetic form of ADHD, but there is, you know, another issue there, which is we've got this huge increase in ADHD, and we know that the younger a child's given a device, or the more time they spend on a device, the more likely they will end up being diagnosed with ADHD.

Dom Hind 35:41

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 35:42

So we need to be careful about that as well, right?

Dom Hind 35:44

There is Well, I mean, the investments of time, or not even the time that you need to try and work out whether you treat or how you manage it, that's a lot more than that initial investment up front.

Dr Mark Williams 35:55

And the expense.

Dom Hind 35:58

Yes. Um, what role does dopamine play in screen use and overuse?

Dr Mark Williams 36:04

Yeah, dopamine we there's misunderstanding, I think, out there in the world. This is another misunderstanding around dopamine. Dopamine actually doesn't make us feel good, which is wrong. Dopamine actually makes us search for whatever it is that we just had because we want to actually have more of it, right? That's actually about search. And so, for example, the the reason it evolved basically was that you know you would have been walking around and you would have tried some berries, which would have tasted good. Yeah, and so dopamine be released, so you'd search for more of those berries because they're really good for you, so you'd eat more of them, and then you search for more and then you'd eat more of them, and then you get satiated, you get full, and so you'd move on, right? Whereas when you're on a device, you get a reward because you're on the device, right? They're very good at rewarding us for that, and dopamine's re-released to make a search for more of that, and so we search for more of it, and then we get more of it, more dopamine, which makes us search for more of it, and then that keeps going, but you never get satiated, right? You never get full of it, and so you're constantly wanting that and wanting that and wanting that. And the real world isn't like that, no, right?

Dom Hind 37:10

The real world is that we occasionally get rewards, and when we do, we search for more of those until we get full, and then we stop, which doesn't happen when you're on a device, yeah, and the instant gratification like is like even just with my kids, I see the instant gratification, like I've got to get it now, and I'm like, No, no, no, you have to save. You've got to save if you want something. Yes.

Dr Mark Williams 37:30

But that's what they're trained for, right? They're trained for this constant, and that's not the real world. Again, it's not what actually happens in the real world, and so we need to train them for the real world because that's where they're actually gonna live.

Dom Hind 37:41

Yes, well, let's hope that they live in the real world, yes. Um, are kids more vulnerable to this than adults?

Dr Mark Williams 37:49

Yes, because they haven't yet developed the ability to inhibit it. So your frontal lobes don't fully develop until you're 25, plus or minus two years. Um and so you you don't fully develop your executive functions, which is your ability to hit inhibit response and make decisions about what you want, and also you haven't developed your full um character, right? Who you actually are and what you want to be and what's important to you and what's not important to you to you. And you learn all that during your first 25 years or so. It keeps we keep learning, of course, later on, but a lot of it's developed during those first 25 years, and that you learn through trial and error. I like hanging out with that person, or I don't like hanging out with that person. No, that person's phone, and uh, I like doing those things and I don't like doing those things, and that makes me feel a bit odd, and I'm gonna avoid that in the future. And if you're not doing all those things that we should be doing, and you're just on the device, then that's all you know, and so you're gonna develop this idea that that's what I want to be. Yeah, is this person who sits on a device all the time and does this all the time, and this is not actually good for us long term. And plus, what how what are you gonna do for a living if this is what you do? Yeah, there aren't any jobs controlling.

Dom Hind 39:07

No. There's there used to be game testers, and everyone wanted to be a game tester, but you know, I don't think they're they're very, very rare.

Dr Mark Williams 39:15

Yeah, I I I saw a thing that there's also there's a lot of people now, well not now, there was for a little while, um, where schools were getting kids to also do um gaming because there was those gamers that were making big money being gamers on uh yeah, and it's it's supposed to be it's harder to become one of those than it is to become a professional golfer. It's like really difficult, crazy difficult. And we don't, yeah.

Dom Hind 39:42

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 39:43

So just don't do it. Just don't do it.

Dom Hind 39:46

Um, I love some of the simple ideas in the book, like tech free times, home uh phones away at meals, going for walks together. I love the going for walks together, um, or just creating small moments of connection. What are some of the ones that you do in your life as small moments of connection with your family that you go, these are the best things that we can do?

Family Connection Habits That Stick

Dr Mark Williams 40:10

Yeah. So I I've got a I've got a teenage daughter and a teenage boy. Yep. And they're very different individuals. And so with my my my son loves playing basketball. Yeah, and so we'll often go down to some great courts near our house, which a government, the local government built, which is thank you, government because they're awesome. Um, and a lot of teenagers go there and play. And so I'll often go down there and play basketball with him, which is fantastic, because he'll chat to me while we're playing basketball, and we'll, you know, he'll rib me because I'm getting older and stuff. Um and nothing yeah, gets a teenage boy going more than being their dad, yeah. Um, which is fantastic. And so that's one of the things I love doing with him. And he doesn't take his phone, let me do that. And I'll take my phone and I'll leave it in the car. Yeah. Um, and then with my daughter, it's I usually usually the thing that works really well is going for a drive. Um, because you're not confronting then, right? So sit down with a teenager and try to talk like this is just impossible because you're facing them and they get very anxious about that. And yeah. And so going for a drive and putting she puts on the music that she likes to listen to. And we both love music, and uh I any genre I love listening to. And so we'll talk about the music, and because we're both looking forwards rather than looking at each other, we'll actually she'll really open up over that. Um, and that works really well. And now she's got her learners, or it's even better because I can sit in the I don't have to drive. And we can't does it work better though?

Dom Hind 41:40

Like, don't you get stressed and go, Oh my gosh.

Dr Mark Williams 41:42

No, she's pretty good. Well, most of the time she's pretty good. Um, sometimes, yeah, she starts singing along to something, and I'm like, don't joke stop, yeah.

Dom Hind 41:49

Eyes on the road. Eyes on the road, yeah. Um, I think it is uh the yeah, in the book it actually made me realize that I do not have enough one-on-one time with my kids and like pure one-on-one, not with the two of them, just one-on-one. And it's something that I spoke to them about over the holidays and said, Okay, we need to go and do something. What do you want to go and do? And it was great. My son, because we love going on a bushwalk, and there's this beautiful tree behind us, which we call the brain tree. So we're actually now gonna do just a loop of that once a week just to go for a walk and touch the brain tree and get back into nature. Um, but it it it was a good reminder that you know having that one-on-one time is really important, particularly if you've got multiple kids.

Dr Mark Williams 42:37

Yeah, it is, it's really important because you there's a there's always a competition between the kids, right? Always. And so you've got this set up and they'll nag at each other. And my my kids love each other, but that they have fired, like serious fights, and so trying to get them to be honest with me when the other one's there is really hard.

Dom Hind 42:53

Oh, yeah. Well, because then the other one will remember and get them later on and all the rest of it.

Dr Mark Williams 42:58

So, yeah, one-on-one time is really important.

Dom Hind 43:00

Um and what uh so with this, the biggest what is the biggest mistakes that adults are making with their screens?

Dr Mark Williams 43:13

Number one is um uh treating the notifications as though they're more important than who's in front of you, right? I think the number one thing we've got to get back to, I don't know, I've been thinking about reading writing an etiquette book, because I think we need etiquette for the 21st century. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's just no, I just put that out there, didn't I? Someone else will write an etiquette. That's good. I don't have time to be honest. Someone else can write it. Um plus I'd be worried because my etiquette might be. Yeah, it'd be the same if cares.

Dom Hind 43:44

At least it's a baseline. Just give them a baseline.

Dr Mark Williams 43:47

Yeah, but but that whole idea of the person in front of you, they're giving you your their time, right? And they're the most important person, not the text you just got through or the the like you just got, or whatever it happens to be. And so realizing that the devices are really cool. Because they can save that information for later on when you're by yourself. But if you're with someone, they're the most important person. And don't look at your phone, put your phone away, get rid of it.

Dom Hind 44:08

I think it with that. I've got my only notifications are my text messages. I'm like, oh, and phone calls, obviously, but that's it. Like any social, any WhatsApp, I just don't have them as a notification. No, none of the new, like just I've turned everything off because it is such a distraction. You're working, and then you know, we talk about multitasking, which is a croc. And I think you've made it very clear in the book, it is an absolute croc. It's not multitasking, it's switch switch tasking. And you can't do one thing and then come back to it after uh an like you're not in that same mindset. So the notifications, yeah, I think they've just got to come off.

Dr Mark Williams 44:50

Yeah. Yeah, get rid of them all. There's no reason to have them. No. It's like the the only reason to have them is so that the companies can make more money. That's it. Because they want your attention on the phones. Yeah. And um, yeah, I do because I give a lot of community talks. Uh, and I often get people, parents, coming to me and saying, Well, I can't turn off all my notifications because that's one of the things I recommend. Yeah. I can't turn off all my notifications because at work I need them or da da da. And and I have a very good friend who's a surgeon and he has all his notifications turned off because he doesn't want to get distracted all the time.

Dom Hind 45:22

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 45:22

And if people need him, they call him.

Dom Hind 45:24

That's it.

Dr Mark Williams 45:24

Right? If there isn't actually an emergency, someone will call you. Yeah.

Dom Hind 45:28

And they're finally after like 10 texts or yes, yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 45:32

Right. If it is an emergency. Um, otherwise, you can check the text when you need to check the text, and that can be an hour later or two hours later or whatever it happens to be. Yeah. But yeah, if a surgeon doesn't need their notifications, I don't know who would. Really.

Dom Hind 45:45

Oh, the one that drives me crazy is all the news notifications. I'm just like, who cares? Like you knew consume your news when you've got time, not when they're telling you it's time. Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 45:56

Or trumps on something else. It's stupid. There's so much stupid stuff in the world. It's yeah, why do you need to know about it? It's great when you don't know about it.

Dom Hind 46:04

Oh, I agree.

Dr Mark Williams 46:05

Yeah.

Dom Hind 46:05

Um, okay, so turn notifications off. What else would you put in your etiquette book?

Dr Mark Williams 46:10

Um, no phones anywhere, like no phones in the bathroom, no phones in the bedroom. I just find it bizarre that there are devices in either of those places. Because why do you need them in those places? And yeah, the only reasons you need them are for reasons to have them in those rooms, um, especially teenagers. Yeah. Um in my etiquette book, I I would also talk about like people uh being respectful towards each other that we've got to realise that we don't know what's going on in someone else's life. And so therefore, just slow down and don't. I mean, I saw it this morning when I was driving here, right? And the the one spot that the cars merge and need the the cars in front, a couple up in front wouldn't give to each other. And it's what's the point? Yeah, like yeah, and and aggressiveness in the driving, I think. Yeah, there's so there'd be yeah, a whole big chapter on driving, because I think and having a daughter who's doing her L having L plates on at the moment, the driving stuff has just been Yeah, I've been shocked at especially guys in youths, yeah, I guess. Because they see that it's a learner, yeah. Um, and caught you know, could cause an accident by doing that and being rude. And yeah, I think we just need to slow down and realize we're all actually just trying to do the best, the best we can. Yeah, and yeah, sometimes shit happens, but yeah, yeah.

Dom Hind 47:31

So it comes back to the pause.

Dr Mark Williams 47:34

Yeah, yeah. And you've got to slow down, pause, pause and slow down and actually just enjoy this ridiculous life that we're living. Yeah. Because I mean, yeah, I I I recently read it, read a thing on the fact that this is quite absurd, right? That we're on this rock in the middle of nowhere and we have the ability to think, right? And that's quite amazing that that actually happened, but it's completely random. Yeah, and so our lives are completely random. So we should just enjoy the the process we're here. Yeah, it's all absurd. Yeah, not be aggressive about it.

Dom Hind 48:05

Yeah. Um so beyond reducing screen time, what actually supports brain health?

Dr Mark Williams 48:15

Uh so the number one thing is actually socializing in real life.

Dom Hind 48:19

In real life.

Socialising, Sleep, And Real Brain Health

Dr Mark Williams 48:20

In real life, IRL. Yeah. So there's a Harvard study which is called the the Harvard study, because it's been going on at Harvard for 75 years. And about every five years they release huge amounts of data where they've been studying hundreds of thousands of people, um, and all the behavioural psychologists get really excited by it and analyse all the data. And and over the 75 years, the number one thing that's been shown to decrease the likelihood of you getting Alzheimer's, disease, and other neurodegenerative diseases, increase your lifespan by 10 to 15 years, increase your IQ, decrease uh cardiovascular problems, so you're less likely to have a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah, and you're actually physically healthier, decrease the likelihood of having mental health issues, uh, and decrease all of the stress and anxiety and all those issues as well, is just sitting down and chatting with someone you trust on a regular basis. Right? And that's all you've got to do. It's that's the best thing we can do for our brain. Yeah. And the reason for that is that we're social animals. Yeah. We're the most social animal, right? That's how we became this alpha species, right? Because we we connected and because we empathize with each other, and because we spend time with each other. And that's how our brains evolve was to spend time with each other and trust each other. And loneliness kills us, right? Loneliness causes psychosis, loneliness does mean that we die many, many years earlier than we should. It causes a whole bunch of other diseases in our bodies because of the fact that we need to be social, we need to be with each other, and it needs to be in real life. And the reason it needs to be in real life is because when you're on a device, you get dopamine, as we talked about before, but you don't get the other really important neurotransmitters. So when we meet in real life, the first thing we do is touch each other. Yeah, yes. So, and touch releases oxytocin, which makes us more connected to the person we just touched, which is really, really important. And then you've got body language and prosody of the voice and facial expressions and um all of those things that would release serotonin, which make us more, yeah, happier and more joyful, right? It's more about yeah, being content where you are and actually spending time with that person. Um, so we get those two neurotransmitters plus dopamine because it's telling us to search for more of this because it's important. But we don't get those two really important neurotransmitters when we're online, but we need them because they activate lots of areas of our brain. And there's great studies now showing uh when you're online versus when you're face to face, showing that when you're face to face, all these other areas of your brain are active. Um, and again, it's use it or lose it. The most active thing you can do for your brain is to socialise.

Dom Hind 50:58

Okay, good.

Dr Mark Williams 50:59

Socialize.

Dom Hind 50:59

Yep.

Dr Mark Williams 51:00

Real life, yeah, with real people.

Dom Hind 51:03

Real life, real people, doesn't matter what you're doing, just talking to someone.

Dr Mark Williams 51:06

Yeah, yeah. And and social media is not social, right? No, it's social media advertising.

Dom Hind 51:10

It is 100%.

Dr Mark Williams 51:12

This whole idea that's out there that you know kids need to be on social media to stay social or to stay connected with their friends is complete nonsense. It's not true. It's just not true. The evidence is not there.

Dom Hind 51:23

Yeah, okay, good. And you're you're you've seen the evidence, so uh Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 51:28

Yeah, no, it's definitely not there.

Dom Hind 51:30

Um, what role does sleep, movement, and recovery play in brain health?

Dr Mark Williams 51:36

Oh, lots. They're also really important. And and that's a problem, right? The devices mean that we're not sleeping as much as you used to, which is really bad for uh our kids and for and for us as well, um, because of the blue light, but also because of the anxiety and cortisol. So just being on a screen causes release of cortisol, which increases stress levels. Just opening a device, doesn't matter what you're actually doing on them.

Dom Hind 51:59

And so that's well, just even just opening a device.

Dr Mark Williams 52:02

Yes, yeah. You get an automatic increase in cortisol in your system, right? Which is really bad for your system. So just yeah, opening it does that. And and the actual fact just having the phone on you increases your stress levels compared to not having it on you, and decreases your uh working memory and decreases your uh IQ, just having a price on you. So we're dumb with just by having them. If we put them away, we're get a little bit smarter just by putting them away. Um, but sleep is really important because we go through a whole we go through five different stages when we're sleeping, and some of those are about getting rid of the neurochemicals in our brain that are left over from the day. Yeah, yeah. And they can be toxic if we don't get rid of them. And then it's about rejigging our uh long-term memories so that we incorporate what we now know about the world into that, and so we're learning while we're actually sleeping. Uh, and then we go through um what we talk of as REM sleep or dream, yeah. But it's not actually dreaming, right? What you're actually doing is you're going through lots of scenarios about what you did that day and how you can do them better. So you're actually learning how to do things better, and that's where you become innovative and creative. So we're not in innovative and creative during the day, we are at night, which is why you get those light bulb moments. Yeah. It's because you dreamt about it a couple of days before, or weeks before, or months before. Because that all happens at night as well. And then you lay down new memories from that day from your temporary store. Yep. And you do that in reverse order, which is really interesting. So the last thing you did at night is the first thing that gets laid down in your long-term memory. Oh, wow. Yeah, which is really interesting. Which means the first things you did in the morning are the last things to get laid down in your long-term memory. So if you don't sleep enough, you don't lay down the stuff that you did in the morning.

Dom Hind 53:48

Right.

Dr Mark Williams 53:49

Which is always ironic because schools always do the hard stuff in the morning because they're more alert. But if they don't get enough sleep, then they're gonna lose all.

Dom Hind 53:57

But it's also in the morning, you're set on you know, you wake up, you're feeling good, okay. Yep, do the foundations, the basics, do all my habits, and then by the end of the day, you're like, oh my god, it's just look at a screen for a couple of hours, and yet that's what's gonna get laid down. Yes.

Dr Mark Williams 54:12

Which is probably why everyone's depressed because you're remembering all the stuff that you're doing.

Dom Hind 54:17

All the bad stuff rather than getting up in the morning and going for a work. Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 54:21

But that's all good too. You should be getting up in the morning and exercising, yeah, seeing the sun and all that sort of thing.

Dom Hind 54:28

Seeing the sun.

Dr Mark Williams 54:28

Yeah, which is really good. But you you all then need to actually sleep long enough so that you can lay down all your memories from the day.

Dom Hind 54:37

Yeah, okay, good. Um now I I said that I do have did do have a little bit of brain frog fog, but I have noticed improvements with having creatine.

Dr Mark Williams 54:48

Yes.

Dom Hind 54:49

What do you think about that?

Dr Mark Williams 54:51

Yeah, so there's a big meta-analysis of all the studies on keratin. Yeah. Um and it showed there was benefits to um your memory and your attention level. Yes. Yeah. Um, and it seems to be if if you're lacking in in your diet or you've got changes going on which are causing a lack of it, then it actually is beneficial. But that's the same for any supplement. Yes. You've got to be lacking in it to begin with for the supplement to actually help. Yes. And it's really it's important for ATP, which is involved in uh creating energy, basically. And your brain uses 25% of the energy that you use every day. Yeah. And so it's really, it really needs a lot of energy, and and that seems to be where it's helping. It's helping with the ATP transformation, which helps with the energy in your brain.

Dom Hind 55:43

Okay.

Dr Mark Williams 55:44

And so, yeah, but it's probably it could be because of changes that are occurring. Yeah, yeah. Or it could be because of your diet's not sufficient. Yeah. But yeah, if you do need supplements, then it's usually because something's lacking.

Dom Hind 55:57

Yeah. Okay, good.

Dr Mark Williams 55:58

But it is it is shown to be quite good for those two things. Yeah. Attention and memory.

Dom Hind 56:02

Okay, good. Well, I've I've found it helpful.

Dr Mark Williams 56:05

Well, that's good.

Dom Hind 56:07

Um, do you think we've normalized screen use so much that we've stopped questioning it?

Dr Mark Williams 56:14

I think we've started questioning it again. Yeah, okay. Which is good.

Dom Hind 56:17

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 56:17

Um, I hope anyway. Maybe that's just too unmixed with. Maybe yeah.

Dom Hind 56:21

Maybe it's yeah, your circle of importance. Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 56:24

I mean seven, eight years ago when I used to post things on LinkedIn. Um, I used to get a lot of backlash from a lot of people. Really? Oh, yeah. You you've got to remember that that there was even when with the social media ban, there was a lot of people who were arguing against it, including including the e-safety commissioner, right? Yeah. She argued against it as well.

Dom Hind 56:47

Well, she was the pockets were probably bang line. Anyway, no.

Dr Mark Williams 56:50

There's something going on, yeah.

Dom Hind 56:52

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 56:53

Who knows what? Um, and there's a lot of psychologists and a a lot of mental health groups that were actually arguing against mental health groups were arguing against it. Yeah, some, yeah. Um, but then if you actually look into it, a lot of those uh well, some of those were actually being funded by social media companies. And so and and that's one of the big problems also that's happened in the UK at the moment, is there's a lot of these groups that are actually arguing against it. But then if you actually look in the background, says they're getting funding from. Yeah, and and there's programs in schools that are funded by or receive funding from these social media groups, and so they promote it, right, rather than actually saying, actually, this is this is an issue. And so I think that's more people are aware of that, yeah, which is great. Yeah, which is changing that. Um and I think people are just yeah, just noticing the the breakdown of cohesion in society is really sad. Yeah and the political issues that we're having. Um, and you know, do you really want to be like some people that we see on and that crazy, right?

Dom Hind 58:01

What the orange man over the other side of the world?

Dr Mark Williams 58:03

Yeah, I mean the yeah. I mean, he I think he's been great because he's showing how crazy you can become.

Dom Hind 58:10

Yeah. If you spend way too much time on eating McDonald's, KFC, and on social media. Um, are we being intentional with how we use technology or are we just reacting to it?

Dr Mark Williams 58:28

I don't think we're reacting to it. I think uh it it's been set up in a way that means that it they're manipulating us. Yeah. Yeah, and and we need to come to terms with that. Um and we either need to change the way we use it or we need governments to change the way they're allowed to actually do it, right? I I remember I during the social media um ban discussions, I spoke to a lot of different politicians and several of them, quite bizarrely, I thought, said to me after I talked to them about the social media and all the issues with it. They said, but if we legislate to control these issues, such as the the algorithms running in the background and the likes and all these things, which we should be legislating against because it changes our behaviour, um then these companies uh will probably go broke, right? They'll probably no longer exist. So and it's like if these companies are unethical the way they're actually practicing now, and if you stop them, if you make them be ethical, they go broke, then they shouldn't exist in the first place, surely, right? Yeah. Whereas they have this strange idea that we don't want these companies not to exist. I'm not sure why we don't want these companies not to exist if they are unethical. Because we could make ethical versions of these.

Dom Hind 59:42

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there was a there was one that tried to, but that failed, unfortunately.

Dr Mark Williams 59:47

Yeah, because it wasn't addictive. Yeah, exactly. And so if it's not addictive, then it's not gonna work, unless we get rid of all the addictive ones, and then we'll use the ones that aren't addictive in a positive way. Yeah, because it is, it's an amazing technology. Yeah, we could be using it for good if we wanted to, but it's currently we're using it to allow a couple of multinational companies to make huge amounts of money and manipulate everything from politics to our kids' education, yeah, which is really scary.

Dom Hind 1:00:13

Yeah. Do you I was just thinking, do you think we as adults don't allow ourselves to be bored as well, which is why we turn to the doctor?

Dr Mark Williams 1:00:22

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I and I think boredom, again, is really good for us, right? Yeah. And and just not even being bored, right? Read a book. Yeah. Sit down and actually read a book. I I have a lot of parents come to me after my presentations and say, uh, uh, how do I get my kids to read more books? Because I want them to read more books. Because we know that's the most, the most that they're gonna be more successful later on in life the more books they read when they're kids. Yeah. And my first question is, how many books do you read a year? Yes. And and straight, you know, most of the time they'll say, Oh, yeah. Well, I'll say I I read when I'm on holidays. Yeah. And it's like, well, you know, your kids are gonna do what you do. So if you're reading the book regularly, your kids will read a book regularly. I will read and sit on the couch and read, and often my son will come and sit beside me and read, or my daughter will come and sit beside me and read, right? Because the they don't turn on television because I'm reading, because that'd be just rude. Again, etiquette book, right? There's a there's a part of the etiquette book. Turn off your TV.

Dom Hind 1:01:20

It's even without the read, so we do a reading club. So, because the schools still say you have to read 25 minutes a night, not that anyone does, and our kids were not, or my kids were not doing it. So we do a reading club now where before bed, I'll lay in my daughter's bed next to her, I'll be reading, she'll be reading, and same with my husband with my son.

Dr Mark Williams 1:01:42

Yeah.

Dom Hind 1:01:43

Because if you're doing it, they do it, they do it.

Dr Mark Williams 1:01:46

Yeah. And it makes such a big difference later on. It yeah, yeah. Often, well, not anymore, but I used to often get asked to talk about uh uh uh uh with HSE students and stuff about how how to get into university and how to my first question's always, what do you think is the most important thing to be good at and to become a neuroscientist? And you always get, you know, mathematics or engineering and all these things. And I said no, it's actually being able to read because you get a big textbook that you'll have to read. It doesn't matter what subject you do, no, uh you're gonna get a textbook and you have to read it. It doesn't matter really what profession you're going to, you're probably gonna have to read and be good at reading. Even a plumber, right, has to be able to do quotes and all these things and understand how the stuff works and all the rest of it. And so yeah, reading is so important. Reading and so hard.

Dom Hind 1:02:32

Yeah, well it is. Which is why it's it is, yeah. Like even with reading your book, I read it while I was on holidays and then read on the playbook, like just because it was the only time that I could actually sit down and do it. But it's easy to read club. It is, you know what, it it is a really easy book to read, which is why I got through it. So thank you. Yeah, um, how should we be thinking about things like AI and what's coming next?

AI, Wearables, And Tech That Manipulates

Dr Mark Williams 1:03:02

Yeah, what's coming next is a bigger problem than AI, I think. Um, AI isn't causing the problem that everyone's arguing that's causing. Yeah. Actually, I I was reading the other day and that they were talking about the um the top 500 companies in the world, and that uh they they surveyed the CEOs of those companies and found that the vast majority of them hadn't seen any redundancies as a result of AI, right? This whole idea that it's going to take over the world is just ridiculous. Um the only area that is taking over is actually programming, right? Yes. Which is ironic, right? Programmers actually made this thing, which is actually really good at doing what they do, and now they're all losing their jobs. But apart from tech area, it's actually not causing a problem. And the biggest growth area in it in um employment is health, right? So if if you want to make sure you've got a job in the future or your kids have a job in the future, get them to look at areas in health, whether it's OT or psychologist or jobs.

Dom Hind 1:03:57

And trades or all of them. Trades as well. And trades, yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:04:00

Yeah, oh, yeah, around here, definitely. Um and so they're things that you need to actually be really good at interacting with people, right? And talking to people, and whether it's trades or it's um health area. And so I don't see it making a huge difference in those areas. I do worry about things like the glasses, and that that's gonna even be more addictive and people are gonna be more cut off because of those things.

Dom Hind 1:04:28

And well, because it's the constant barrier. Yeah, between them, yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:04:34

Yeah, and the safety concerns are around that too, because they're videoing everybody as they're walking around, and then the face detection, and they were really worried about yeah, safety of kids and all the rest of it. Um, that worries me, and um the the other wearables also worry me because they're going to have more and more data on us and what we like and what we don't like. I mean, you've got to so on social media, we know that instantly on Instagram, for example, if a girl, if a teenage girl deletes a photo of herself within 500 milliseconds, she'll start getting advertising from cosmetic companies. If she deletes a photo of somebody else, that doesn't happen. Yeah, right. And the reason for that is they realize that she's feeling bad about herself, about how she looks, and so they target her, right? And by having wearables, of course, we they're gonna be getting more data than that. Um, and so those things concern me more than the AI. Because AI isn't intelligent, right? It's artificial intelligence. Artificial means fake, right? So it's really fake intelligence. So it's pretending to be intelligent, but all it's doing is regurgitating information that's out there. Yeah. Which is why a lot of them had to be turned off, right? Because they were learning based on what was on the internet and what was in the internet now, majority of it's AI. And if you learn from yourself, then you get dumber. And so the AI started getting dumber, so they turned it off, right? Because it can't be.

Dom Hind 1:05:59

Yeah. We're all getting dumber.

Dr Mark Williams 1:06:01

Yeah. So and the people who are going to throw up flourish in the future are those that are going to have really good communication skills. It's about being a human.

Dom Hind 1:06:11

Like it is like it is all about everyone will flourish if you're a human.

Dr Mark Williams 1:06:15

If you're real.

Dom Hind 1:06:16

If you're real, if you're authentic, if you can have a conversation, if you can read people, if you can present, if you can sell, if you can, all those things.

Dr Mark Williams 1:06:24

But that that'll never go away.

Dom Hind 1:06:26

No, never. Um, what does using technology well actually look like?

Dr Mark Williams 1:06:33

Yeah, you're using it to benefit you rather than to benefit the tech companies, right? They make money when you're looking at the device. That's when they make money because of cell advertising. So what they want is you're looking at the device. And you know, productivity apps, most of them make you less productive. Yeah, right. Um, the we know the step counters, if you get a step counter, you're more likely to put on weight afterwards because you do the 10,000 steps, which there's no evidence 10,000 steps is what you need to do, and then you reward yourself, and so you end up putting on weight because you're not doing as much as you should. Um there isn't really any of those things that actually help us. Social media is not social, right? Yeah, if it says it does one thing, then it probably does the other. Something else, yeah, yeah. And so think about what actually benefits you. And so for me, my device is I I have a phone, and it's great if somebody wants to contact me, because you know, we'll do this. I haven't touched my phone since I knocked at the door downstairs, and I won't touch it again until I leave. And when I get back to my car, I'll check to see if I've got emails and all those sorts of things. And if I don't, that's great. And if I do, I can reply to them, and then I'll put it away again and I'll do another couple of hours of being the real world. Yeah, and then I'll check it again. And that's what it's really good at. It's a good at saving stuff.

Dom Hind 1:07:48

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:07:49

Um, and so yeah, putting it in a place where it's it's good at what it does.

Dom Hind 1:07:53

I always say that my mobile phone is for my convenience, not yours.

Dr Mark Williams 1:07:57

Yeah, and that's another one of those etiquette things, right? Is getting away from this idea that everybody needs to be contactable all the time.

Dom Hind 1:08:04

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:08:04

Because we don't.

Dom Hind 1:08:05

I'm not I'm not saving lives, so like I don't like it.

Dr Mark Williams 1:08:08

Yeah, exactly. I don't need to, I don't need to be bothered all the time by people. I and and we need to move away from that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of the things that did frustrate me when I was at the university, because I used to have a thousand over a thousand students in my first year neuroscience course. And a lot of them would expect me to respond within, you know, an hour or two. And so I would say I respond once a week during this period of time. That's it.

Dom Hind 1:08:34

Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:08:35

And I wouldn't respond everyone.

Dom Hind 1:08:36

But you're managing their expectations, yeah, exactly.

Dr Mark Williams 1:08:38

And they'd solve things themselves. I got a lot less emails knowing that I was only because they went, Oh, I better work out if I can fix it myself. Yeah. Up until that time. Yeah. And they do. Yeah. And even teenagers, a lot of people say to me, How do you let your teenagers like out and doing their own thing and all the rest of it? And it's like, because they solve the problems, you know. Yeah, occasionally the bus doesn't turn up, so they've got to wait for another one, or they've got to find another one. Or yeah, they didn't get the lift that they thought they were gonna get in the lift from a friend's parents, and so they have to work out another way to do it. And it's good for them.

Dom Hind 1:09:08

Oh, it is it it is okay. Rapid fire round. One myth about screens that needs to go.

Dr Mark Williams 1:09:19

Uh just one.

Dom Hind 1:09:21

Yeah. You're gonna have so I'm sure you've got 20, but you know, the top one.

Dr Mark Williams 1:09:26

The top one would be that social media is social.

Dom Hind 1:09:28

Yeah, okay. I think that's a good one. Yeah, it's yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:09:31

Not at all.

Dom Hind 1:09:32

One thing parents get wrong about screen time.

Dr Mark Williams 1:09:41

I I hear a lot that screen time that that kids need to learn how to be on devices for their futures, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's not true. Because screens uh they're ubiquitous because they're so easy to use. And so you don't need to learn how to use them. They just I don't know a five-year-old that can't use it like that. That's just nice. They're not. You don't need to learn how to use a screen. Sorry.

Dom Hind 1:10:04

Okay, good. One simple rule every family should have.

Dr Mark Williams 1:10:08

Uh no phones in bedroom, bathroom, or at the dinner table.

Dom Hind 1:10:12

Okay, good one.

Dr Mark Williams 1:10:13

Well, no devices. No devices, yeah, yeah. No, there's lots of things.

Dom Hind 1:10:17

Yeah, one habit that improves focus quickly.

Dr Mark Williams 1:10:20

Uh turn off all your notifications so you're not being distracted. Okay, I like that. And it improves mental health as well within the city.

Dom Hind 1:10:26

Oh, yes, I agree. Yes. Your mood in one word right now.

Dr Mark Williams 1:10:35

Energetic at the moment. Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dom Hind 1:10:38

Well, and is that just because you are inspired by doing stuff that matters?

Dr Mark Williams 1:10:46

Yeah, I suppose so. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Someone asked me um what what's your end goal? And and I said, My end goal would be that I don't have to do this anymore, so that I can just write books. Your etiquette. Yeah, yeah. So it gets to the point where you know there isn't this problem anymore. So I'm out of a job. That'd be fantastic. Okay. Yeah. I'd love to retire.

Dom Hind 1:11:09

Yeah. Um, what's one truth about screens and the brain that we're all ignoring?

Dr Mark Williams 1:11:17

That it is actually causing brain damage, that is actually changing our brains in a negative way. That is going to be a big issue in coming decades. Because we're going to see the result of it when people get a little older.

Dom Hind 1:11:32

Okay, good. And then last question. Um, I'm 50 in under two years now. Um, what is one thing that you recommend that may push me that I should try before I do turn 50?

Dr Mark Williams 1:11:46

Oh. Um do you surf?

Dom Hind 1:11:52

Uh I grew up in loose, but I'm not very good at surfing. Yeah. And the sharks at the moment. Like, come on.

Rapid Fire Rules And Final Takeaways

Dr Mark Williams 1:12:00

No, dude. So uh I'll clear that. Um thing you should try. Yeah. I think everybody should volunteer. So that's one thing I think is really, really important. I'm a surf-ly saver, um, but also do a whole bunch of other volunteering stuff. Yeah, volunteering I think is really, really important. So if you don't volunteer, you probably do volunteer, but if you don't, yeah, I don't know. You already do volunteer. So I don't know enough about you.

Dom Hind 1:12:23

I I volunteer enough at school, um, but I think it's in the community that I probably need to be com volunteering more.

Dr Mark Williams 1:12:31

Yeah, yeah. Volunteer to do something in the community that helps other people. Yeah, I think is really, really important. And it's decreasing society dramatically over the recent years. Yeah. And and it's it benefits the person who's volunteering. Yeah, it does the people that you're actually helping. Yeah. It really does. And there's lots of evidence for that. And you feel part of the community. You do. Yeah. And like my my son gets upset because when we walk around our area, everyone stops and talks to me. Yeah. I know everybody. But isn't that a good point? But he loves it though. He tears a joke about it, but he's he's as social as I am.

Dom Hind 1:13:05

So I don't I get in trouble for gas bagging all the time. I'm like, what? I'm just checking in. Like, as you said, it's the number one thing to make me live longer. Yeah.

Dr Mark Williams 1:13:15

Yeah, it's you're ticking it off, right? You won't have as many mental health issues later on. Yeah, true. This is so good. Yeah, okay. Save you a fortune.

Dom Hind 1:13:23

Yeah, keep gas bagging. That's what my uh that's what I can go back to my kids now and saying. Okay, Dr. Mark, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for this conversation. Um because your work, it really is important, and it really does highlight that it's not just about limiting screens, it's about building better conditions for our brain and making sure that our brain is healthy for the long term for not only ourselves, but also for our kids. And that sleep, movement, connection, being social, stillness, pausing, real-world connections are supposed to be lived, and how we do actually live a better life together. And we live that through all five centers. So, as you said before, it's the touch, the smell, it's the just being in a room, it is being present. Because if we don't have that, we don't really have much else to go on. And I think that uh what really stayed with me from your book is that when we choose presence over distraction, connection over convenience, we're not just managing screen time. We're shaping how our kids see us, how they will behave, and how hopefully they will teach people beyond them to behave as well. And we're shaping how they think, how they feel, and hopefully how the next generations will be. And it feels like something that is definitely worth that investment and in getting it right. So, Dr. Mark Williams. Thank you again for helping us understand what's really going on with our brain, with screens and how we can change our habits into making them good habits and good technology use. And if anyone wants to learn anything else around Dr. Mark's work, I will put everything in the show notes, link to everything. Um, we didn't talk about Brain Camp. Oh, I saw Brain Camp and was like, that's an amazing thing. I want to know more. So I'll put that in the uh show notes as well. And if this episode has made you think about how you use your screen, has made you think about how you get your kids to use their screens or trying to stop them using them and be present in real life, please share it with anyone. Because I think it's a conversation we need to have, not only with ourselves but with the kids. So thank you. And fuck, I'm nearly 50, and isn't it amazing?